This weekend I participated in a small tournament at a local game store. This is the second one they held this year. The first had 12 while Saturday had 6 participants. With these tournaments and other games from campaigns I am going to analyze the VC army build options.
My current army list revolves around an infantry based build with two mortis engines. I have essentially two combat blocks, one skeleton bus with cairn wraith heroes and a large block or crypt horrors. From there the list is rounded out with wolves and spirit hosts as chaff. There is also a unit of vargheists to clear chaff or chase war machines. This has proved fairly effective at times but can really struggle against some armies. It lacks the punch to get through a lot of armor consistently. It seems to do best against infantry armies as the crypt horrors can eat most infantry alive. They are extremely tough to kill unless it has poison or heave strength flaming attacks. The wraith wall unit struggles to inflict damage. Too often they can flub their attacks and the unit just begins to crumble.
Vampire counts seem to be one of the armies still stuck with the core tax. Right now the only core unit I see a clear purpose for is the Dire Wolf. They are great redirectors or war machine hunters. Two units of five always find their way into my list. Zombies are great at dying and coming back. Since the overrun rules have changed, they are not quite as good of a tarpit. To have them last more than one round you will need at least 30 and that might not even be enough. Skeletons are slight better at sticking around then zombies, but are harder to bring back. A large block can last quite a few turns in combat, but they really won't kill much. They can be used as a bus for characters and can carry a magic banner. Ghouls round out the core as a unit that is quite expensive before they come effective. They have poison can 2 attacks each so they can hack through lightly armored troops fairly quickly. Against high armor armies they are worthless and can be an extremely expensive unit. Right now I am leaning to exploring the following core build. This tops out at 630 for a 2500 point list.
5 Dire wolves - 40
5 Dire Wolves - 40
40 Ghouls w/ Ghast - 410
20 Zombies w/ Muso/STD - 70
20 Zombies w/ Muso/STD - 70
Moving to special, the VC have a wide selection of choices. Of that I will refrain from commenting on Fell Bats and Bat Swarms as I have never used them.
Spirit Hosts stand out to me as the first no brainer unit in special. They are a 45 point drop with 4 wounds that many armies struggle at killing. I have had many a spirit host capture units of monsterous cav because they failed a break test when I charged them.
Grave Guard are the VC's elite infantry. They can pump out the strength 6 attacks when equipped with great weapons. Due to this I think GW are a must over HW&S for a single point. If they are going to be ran it is a large block over 30 models. Also they will probably be toting the Banner of the Barrows for a +1 to hit. Can be a really nasty unit, but can struggle in the era of monsterous cav.
Black Knights - They are essentially mounted Grave Guard. Most often they will be used a bus to deliver 2+ vampire characters that will do the killing for the unit. This is a unit that I don't have much experience with myself, but will be something I probably explore more here in the future.
Hexwraiths were called a broken unit when they came out. I don't think that is the case, but they definitely attract a lot of attention when on the battle field. I think a unit of 5 for 150 points can be a useful tool with a vanguard. I don't think they can serve a large unit inflicting a lot of damage, because if the enemy has magic attacks, the Hexwraith's will die in the wind.
Vargheists are the glass cannon unit of the VC. They can hit like a ton of bricks against a lot of things, but will die easily to most things including ballistic skill shooting. Being vampiric fliers, they are great at chasing war machines or going after a mage bunker. I almost have a unit of 3 in my army lists for this kind of thing.
Crypt Horrors are the epitome of an anvil unit. They are toughness 5 and have the 5+ regeneration. When combined with a Mortis Engine they become near indestructible. On the flip side they have issues killing anything other than infantry. They do have poisoned attacks, but just cannot punch through the armor that is everywhere these days.
Where to go with special....I am hesitant to do the typical BK bus build for a few reasons. I don't want to do the "Net list" and also I don't like putting all of my eggs in that one basket. The second option I see and used to play around with is the horde of Grave Guard. This gives me one effective combat unit, but as I write this what I am starting to see is that the VC struggle at putting together more than 1 effective combat unit. Everyone of the the stereotypical builds only has one effective fighting block. Creating that second and third threat to the enemy is the challenge that the VC face.
Moving to rare the options usually boil down to one of two options, the Terrorgheist or the Mortis Engines. The Terrorgheist is the answer for most everything that the Vampires struggle with. Two of these beasts can wreck a lot of face, but a couple of cannon shots and they can be easily removed from the board. On the other hand the Mortis Engine makes the rest of the army much more durable and tough to kill. It also creates the ability to have a powerhouse magic phase with its upgrade. Due to the strengths of the these two choices the rest of them are often overlooked. A unit that I have never played with, but that really intrigues me is the Varghulf. It is a 175 point monster with regeneration. I feel if it was 150 or 160 you might be seeing these a lot more often. Even with that said there still may be a place for them in the VC army. I intend to explore this more here in a fast army with multiple threats. A list with 2 Varghulf's, a unit of Vargheists, a couple of units of crypt horrors, and a unit or two of hexwraiths provides a lot of threats and can actually have some tactical movement options.
All of this rambling aside, I am interested in what others think might be options for the Vampire Counts. As mentioned previously, it is something I am frustrated with at the moment, but not an army I want to throw the towel in on. How would you design a Vampire Counts army list?
You have omitted the corpse cart. Was that on purpose?
ReplyDeleteVampire Counts Analysis
ReplyDeleteWhat will fit both 1) what you want to play and fits his play style, and 2) what will be competitive in the local meta of Warriors, Daemons, Empire, Lizardmen, Dwarves, High Elves, and such.
Types of lists—screamer list (not much fun for anyone, nor great against Dwarves, LM, or HEs); cav bus list (a bit unforgiving, and something you have said you don’t particularly want to play); infantry raising list (what you have been playing).
I think the last list is very viable, and fits well what you will want to play. However, there are some tweaks needed to make it work. I agree, to a degree, that two threats are probably necessary, and that the crypt horrors simply don’t cut it with a lot of what is out there. I think you’d find the crypt horrors a bit better against more infantry heavy armies—such as LM, Dwarves, and HEs, so they do have value, but the lists that your army struggles more with anyway, they do not perform as well.
I think there are two main ways to do an infantry heavy army—which I do think you want to stick with. It fits your style and you have a lot of experience with it. I think there are a few changes that will really help the army succeed. So, the two main ways, 1) you can bring a very killy vamp lord and have him in a core unit to complement your killy special unit of whatever. This is a bit riskier, and honestly, I think the vamp lord probably works better mounted, but then you’re stuck with a 1 or 2 bus list. 2) go for your mass raising style but use your skeletons in a new way.
The way I envision the skeleton unit working is not to do any damage but to not take any damage, thus allowing you to win combats big and break your enemy’s steadfast. You should have vargheist and maybe even varghulfs sitting near your skeletons, and the primary thing you want them charging is the flank of the unit that’s in combat with your skeletons. If you are denying any CR by not allowing kills of the skeletons, but you are charging in the flank and getting lots of wounds, you will win combats big and you will break steadfast. The skeleton unit shouldn’t go in alone or be a roadbump, it is one of your main killing units by denying any static CR and providing you with static CR but most importantly, ranks to break steadfast for the vargheist.
Imagine your game with Ed if your skeletons were in the front of the saurus 5 wide. You challenge with your skeleton champ. His hero either goes to the back or fights. He does some wounds and gets some res from overkill, but nothing else has magic in the unit and cannot do any wounds, as your other 4 front slots are taken up by ethereals. In the flank you have vargheists doing lots of wounds—he has no steadfast, loses combat by a lot more, and you have a good chance to break him and run him down. Less of a chance with him being LM and having cold blood, but that will work wonders on Warriors from WoC or things like Ogres or monstrous cav even. You do have to worry about magical attacks, and so DoC will be a bad matchup for this particular unit and strategy, but that’s a built in part of the game. Ethereal is countered by magical attacks, Banner of the World Dragon counters magical attacks, etc.
So, a list you might want to try out would be something like:
ReplyDeleteMaster necro on vamps, lvl 4
1-2 baby necros with toys
2x5 dogs
1x30-40 skellies with FC
2x20-30 zombies
whatever brings you to 600 core points
horde of GG with banner of the barrows and GWs
2 spirit hosts
vargheists (1-2 units)
either 2 varghulfs or 1 and 1 ME with the tomes?
A list like this is definitely not the easiest list to play with, but I think a lot of armies will struggle with it. It will still struggle with nurgle death daemons plus skullcannons, but other than a VC list that is dogs and cav bus, I think you’ll always struggle a bit in that specific matchup. Of course, that specific matchup will die horrendously to your MSU HEs… paper/rock/scissors a bit, especially for the armies that are a bit more extreme in their makeup.
Knowing how you play and what you like, I think that army has the best chance of doing well in our local meta and being a style you will enjoy and have experience with. If you want a challenge, then by all means, go for the cav bus list, but I don’t think you’ll enjoy it much… and that list is even more hard countered by some armies than your current list!
Any time you want to try out a list I'm happy to play!
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